Views of Windsor from The Brocas since the 1850s

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thamesweb	Views of Windsor from The Brocas since the 1850s	Lead	[-]
Posts: 2021 (31-Jul-2009 04:52 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None One my long term tasks is to put in order the very many photographs that have been taken over the years of Windsor Castle from the Brocas. One of the earliest has to be the one below: where the Curfew Tower roofline is definitely pre-1863. Then there is this one which I have used in several posts as it shows fairly clearly the housing around Bier Lane (River Street) A little later, though not much, is this one: So as the decades advance we come to this one: The ferryman is mid-stream with his punt and a lady (I guess!) with an umbrella - perhaps a gamp. But what is most interesting is the large, white structure on the far bank. It is constructed on a barge of some sort, I am sure, and other views show it in other positions. There is a smaller houseboat affair moored alongside. At first glance the structure could be a raised viewing platform for the boat races on the river which used to form part of Eton College's Founder Day celebrations on June 4th. This will necessarily be a long thread - there are dozens of views to include and discuss. Last Edited By: thamesweb 10-Aug-2009 11:25 AM. Edited 1 time.
thamesweb	An Early 1970s view	#1	[-]
Posts: 2064 (10-Aug-2009 11:25 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Believed early 1970s, this postcard view by Thomas and Benacci Ltd shows the Promenade and a passenger launch that would have been offering 35 minute trips to Boveney Lock and back. Beyond is the former bonded warehouse along River Street that would have been demolished soon after this picture was taken. To the right is Fireworks Ait which was stripped of its overgrown vegetation and renovated in 1971.
vikingnick		#2	[-]
Posts: 42 (12-Aug-2009 12:08 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thamesweb, do you know the date of the last colour picture in your first post on this new thread, as in it you mention the 'large white structure' that might be a 'viewing platfom' and alongside is a 'smaller houseboat affair'. If you look closer at the houseboat, it also has a white framework for a top deck. If you then go and look at the first picture under the section entitled 'The Promenade Takes Shape' within the 'The Promenade and Windsor Riverside' feature on the website, the same white boat with the framework is again shown, alongside the piles of rubble and earthworks as part of the building of the prom. That picture is dated as 1893. Just thought it was interesting thats all. Last Edited By: vikingnick 12-Aug-2009 12:10 PM. Edited 1 times.
thamesweb		#3	[-]
Posts: 2071 (12-Aug-2009 01:45 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You are quite right. The 'structure' crops up in several more views of various dates. One one occasion it is moored further upstream. I estimate that the tinted card, with the stylised clouds and the ferryman in mid-stream, is probably early 1890s. As I say, the thread will be a long one, with all sorts of similar views of varying dates, and perhaps only the height of the trees to judge dates by! Last Edited By: thamesweb 12-Aug-2009 04:02 PM. Edited 1 times.
thamesweb	A view from sometime in the 1950s	#4	[-]
Posts: 2214 (20-Sep-2009 11:57 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This card was published by Valentine & Sons of Dundee and London in their 'Collo Colour' series, no. 4049 (on the reverse) with H 1043 (on the face side). Collo Colour was a way of overprinting in spot colours to add interest and was introduced in the 40s. Even though real colour postcards were commonplace by this time, here Valentine's continue with a series featuring a form of tinted picture that dates back to the late Victorian times. It is hard to identify a precise date for this card as images such as these stay in the publisher's library for quite a few years. There are no stalls along the promenade which suggest the picture was taken sometime in the late 40s or early 50s. There is a cabin cruiser moored on Fireworks Ait - surely the picture artist could have selected a slightly more likely colour for it than pink??!! The card was actually posted in August 1961.
thamesweb	A Busy Day on the Brocas in the 20s/30s	#5	[-]
Posts: 2248 (26-Sep-2009 08:56 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Certainly a busy day! As a Windsorian born and bred, I can't ever remember seeing The Brocas quite as crowded since the war. In an attempt to date the picture as accurately as possible, the three chimneys in Datchet Road (believed to belong to the brewery between the Royal Oak and Thames Street) are still visible making it before 1937 (or so). Although the promenade is not clear, there are people at various levels up the bank, which suggests that the prom is still the grassy slope rather than the stone walls and landscaping of the mid-30s. Finally, I spy a couple of cloche hats which might date it as far back as the mid-20s.
Pat Larkin	The Brocas...	#6	[-]
Posts: 940 (26-Sep-2009 09:54 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That picture is just wonderful thamesweb, and thankyou for finding it and posting it to the forum......what a happy, sunny day....Tony and I both can remember middle to late 40's when going 'over the Brocas' meant a great day out with our parents....a picnic and splashing and paddling in the 'shallow bits' of the Thames.....sometimes an empty space just couldn't be spotted anywhere - lucky people who got there early and 'bagged' their space......not so crowded and popular these days perhaps....Now, that is a scene I'd love as a picture on the wall, and look at that little lad in the front, centre, with what looks like a tea-towel on his head to protect him from the hot sun.....I'm not sure about the date but Tony thinks it's the late 30's. There's a distinct lack of sun-hats and 'shades', (sun-glasses to us), so that could also give a clue to it's year....After the war, there wasn't money to spend of sun-hats and sun-glasses, so it might even be 1945/6...
thamesweb		#7	[-]
Posts: 2249 (26-Sep-2009 10:34 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks a lot for that. I am delighted to have found a couple who can actually recall enjoying a day out on The Brocas, just like the crowds in the picture above. As for date, see my notes, especially re the three chimneys which means it has to be pre-37. Comparing the promenade since that time, for example the 50s view, there is quite a high stone wall whereas in the latest view people are standing watching the happenings on the river so I am pretty much convinced that the view is pre-'36 or '37 promenade reconstruction. Any further back in time is less easy to prove, but the cloche hats must be dateable. The social history is interesting. The crowds could be day trippers from London arriving by rail, or steamer, and of course Windsor or nearby locals. These days we are better able to get to the coast using our own cars, but before the war car ownership was not nearly so widespread so day trippers would have been happy to come to Windsor rather than trying to get to the sea. Rather a generalisation of course as certain seaside resorts such as Southend or Brighton were well within an hour or two of, say, London. Just for fun I have looked up how I might get to my favourite haunt of The Witterings by train. For reference I made it by car the other day in 1 hour 30 (65 miles) including a very pleasant stop at the Trundle by Goodwood Racecourse and overlooking the south coast. Fuel cost was £17.50. Up to five of us could have travelled at around the same cost and in around the same time. By train it would be 2 hours 30 minutes just as far as Chichester with a change at Clapham Junction, and no stop at the Trundle (obviously!). The bus on to The Witterings must take another 30 minutes or more. As for the fare, it would be around £30.00 per person. The best part of double the time and double the cost. For five of us, well over £100 even allowing for an element of discounted or children's fares. No wonder the roads are crowded!
Beryl Mann		#8	[-]
Posts: 307 (26-Sep-2009 09:25 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes it is a lovely photograph - it was very busy too - simply bursting with atmosphere. Maybe not the Brocas but I do remember a very happy day spent by the river with my daughters at Sandy Bay. It was just off the left hand side of Datchet Road up near to the Albert Bridge. It was very clean, clear water. We took a picnic of lovely goodies which we bought at Fuller's in Thames Street en route from the GWR station. It was quite a treat! That would have been in the Summer of '64. I didn't think the spot where the photo was taken would have been quite so safe for the girls as I believe the river could soon become fairly deep not too far out and it wasn't so clear in later years and the grassy slopes were different inasmuch that they later appeared to drop away more steeply rather than slope gently down to the water as in this picture.
thamesweb		#9	[-]
Posts: 2257 (27-Sep-2009 11:42 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	... later years and the grassy slopes were different inasmuch that they later appeared to drop away more steeply... I think you are right. It might have been done to allow more mooring spaces along that side of the river.
Beryl Mann		#10	[-]
Posts: 312 (27-Sep-2009 01:49 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Actually at the time I noticed it Thamesweb there wasn't any mooring to speak of along that side. I thought it was due to erosion by fast moving high water during flooding. May I add at this point a memory or two? The thought of the quacking of the swans and the lapping of the water at the edge against the prom when all else seemed so quiet and peaceful just took me back to when we would walk along the prom at maybe about ten in the morning. We used to see the hired rowing boats moored with their pale green camping covers in place and I imagined people still asleep in them. I have often thought since how did they do that as my nocturnal movements would have capsized the boat in no time! That's where a straight jacket and strong strapping would have been useful....relish the thought! The occupants had probably left their 'hotel' with the appropriate security in place whilst they popped into town for the day! I have mentioned the time I fell into the river on the Albert Street thread but it is a wonder it didn't happen more frequently when I think how, as children, we used to walk - quite briskly in parts - along the wooden boarding just below. When I have seen this since those days the newer board looks narrower and was slightly under the water. Mind you, our feet were smaller then and we wore our usual Summer Clarks sandals and white ankle socks. The river level may well have been lower, but the element of risk was apparent! Whilst at a friend's wedding we had an interlude when we hired one of those rowing boats and dressed all in our posh clothes, I took my hat off - well it didn't look appropriate for this particular moment - but in dusty pink grosgrain with a scalloped front and pretty net trim it was the perfect match for the dusty pink suit which I bought from a shop called Muttons in Peascod Street c.1954. You can imagine my horror when there it was - starting to float away from us! Thankfully the young men in the boat were able, after some clever maneuvering, to retrieve it. On returning to The Olive Branch restaurant by the Theatre Royal where the reception was being held, I was able to put it under the electric hand dryer in the cloakroom (a new experience in those days) but after that my poor hat was less than wearable! In the early seventies we took my girls up to Windsor and went for a row on the river - again the same long type of rowing boat. My older daughter sat firmly on a promenade seat and refused to come with us. She couldn't have known what she was about to miss. I had a feeling things might not go according to plan as soon as I managed to get into the boat when I sat down on the highly varnished seat only to slip backwards straight off it and land in the bottom of the boat with my feet in the air! (Oh!...a message for Tony here - I had forgotten I have already had a practise run re. 'backward flip' as mentioned in an e-mail to Pat and yourself today!) On recovering my self composure we got going, my husband and I were rowing whilst my daughter was accurately steering us until a large barge passed us sailing in the opposite direction and in no time at all its waves took us towards the bank where my daughter shouted a loud shrill warning of "Quick - get down". Fortunately we went straight into a lie-flat position otherwise we could well have been knocked off our 'perches' straight into the river by the low branches of a willow tree sharing our space. We were laughing so much but I knew I just had to hurry up and capture the moment with a photo, which unfortunately is not as readily available as Thamesweb's - you may be pleased to hear! Last Edited By: Beryl Mann 28-Sep-2009 08:01 AM. Edited 3 times.
Pat Larkin	The Thames on the Eton side.	#11	[-]
Posts: 946 (28-Sep-2009 10:39 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Looking again at the photo, I've noticed how far out the children seem to be. It seems to be quite shallow in that area, so does the bottom suddenly 'drop' towards the middle of the river? A steamer needs a certain amount of deep water I suppose, but the bathers don't seem to be too concerned about 'getting out of their depth', they're probably more concerned with how many boats and punts are around them...you wouldn't have room to demonstrate your 'backward flip', would you Beryl, you might end up on the deck of a passing steamer...! A very busy stretch of the Thames at Windsor and considering the strong currents there, children needed the constant attention and watchful eye of their parents. That applied then and still does today.
Beryl Mann		#12	[-]
Posts: 322 (28-Sep-2009 10:35 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I was wondering Thamesweb - is there any information, say like there is with contour maps on land - showing the same type of thing under the river surface to tell us the varying depths and where they would be? I suppose it would be difficult as the river bed could be ever-changing with silt etc. It was something we, or I at least never questioned when young, but I would be much more interested to know now. The man who lived opposite us in Albert Street used to work on the punts on Summer weekends. I could have asked him if I had thought about it years ago, but looking back I don't think I ever noticed when I saw him on the river, his rod - or was it an oar? - suddenly going way down into very deep water and catching him off balance. Perhaps it was an oar and he was rowing the punt but I always thought that it was going right down to the riverbed and being used to push the punt along. I am ashamed to be so ignorant about this, but I have to confess in order to see an explanation - if you or anyone could enlighten me please. Many years ago a soldier was sadly drowned in the river near the iron railway bridge and I believe it was in the local paper report that there was a very deep whole in that area. In that case it is imprtant that people should know where the deeper parts actually exist.
Beryl Mann		#13	[-]
Posts: 323 (28-Sep-2009 10:46 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Backward flips! I felt that last post was a little too serious towards the end to include this comment, Pat so please don't think I was ignoring you! Those unusual, sparodic movements only happen to me by accident or when I need to eject pretty sharply from my soap box! I was very amused as I imagined the scene you described Pat as a Giles cartoon! Last Edited By: Beryl Mann 29-Sep-2009 10:10 AM. Edited 1 times.
thamesweb		#14	[-]
Posts: 2269 (29-Sep-2009 08:24 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	...is there any information, say like there is with contour maps on land - showing the same type of thing under the river surface to tell us the varying depths and where they would be? I am not aware of any such records, although the Environment Agency may have some guidelines. However, there is no real need to know precisely how deep the river is, or where the deeper parts are, and the cost of surveying the entire length of the river on a regular basis would be far too much. I am aware that a large 'hole' was found downstream of Windsor Bridge after the Freeze of '63 possibly caused by the scouring effect around the bridge piers but the easy answer as to how deep the river is, from a safety point of view, is to assume that most of the time it would be over your head and to keep out of it! The depth of the river has been previously discussed here - entry 17-18.
Beryl Mann		#15	[-]
Posts: 324 (29-Sep-2009 10:20 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What a wealth of information was to be found there! I had read many of the later postings and saw one or two of my own which I had almost forgotten about as I ventured up and away from my cosy posting surroundings of Albert Street....so once again thank you for helping me out here. It was like old times reading Hazel's posts again. I felt scared again at seeing people on the frozen river including Phil's wife and daughter. As for Bob's account of going through the ice...I think someone apart from his very sensible brother was watching over him then! Last Edited By: Beryl Mann 29-Sep-2009 10:24 AM. Edited 1 times.
Pat Larkin	State of the water...	#16	[-]
Posts: 953 (30-Sep-2009 09:44 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In recent years of conservation and river-cleaning etc. what is the present state of the water at Windsor? Should someone fall in and swallow an amount, would it be dangerous and would it need a trip to a hospital, just to make sure....our sea water gets tested regularly, and if some resorts don't come up to the mark, they don't get the Blue Flag symbol, or if they had it and the water isn't clean enough on the day of inspection, it's taken away.....is the cleanliness of the Thames ever posted anywhere, either, say in the town or on the river-banks, so that bathers can check on what they're actually swimming in?
Mayor of Bexley		#17	[-]
Posts: 92 (30-Sep-2009 02:30 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	When we were kids, we were told "never go swimming from the Brocas" There is a shelf there and you go from shallow to deep water suddenly when you come up you are probably under this shelf and can't surface GOOD BYE.
Beryl Mann	Shelf and Ice Dangers.	#18	[-]
Posts: 327 (30-Sep-2009 04:32 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I hadn't heard that before M.o.B. but for some reason it just gave me the creeps seeing all those children and parents in the photograph looking blissfully unaware of any possible danger......and there you were knowing about the possibilities of the shelf from years before and looking through a camera lense at your wife and daughter posing for you whilst standing on the ice.....oh! how could you! Thank goodness they weren't saying 'GOOD BYE' to you! Please don't think I am making any judgement here and I am no kill-joy but I was rather taken aback! I mentioned earlier that a soldier drowned up near the railway bridge by the old swimming pool and I believe it would have been late forties or very early 50s and that is where the newspaper report stated that there was a deep hole. In the sea you can tell how much you are out of your depth when the tide is in (how I always preferred to swim) by taking note of the depth of the beach when the tide is out which is easier when you can see it on both occasions....but at least you could feel more sure about it. Rivers or sea - all water commands respect regarding safety and that has to include jumping or diving into shallow and often unclear water as people down on the coast are frequently experiening to their cost! Pat had a point about the river being monitored for cleanliness. I had seen in a television program that the Thames flowing through London is, so I should imagine that would be the case right the way through....perhaps by the various Water Boards. Pat probably has Thamesweb's reply to her questions by now knowing him! Did you spot the Miscellaneous Topic then? All done and dusted! No more complaints, eh? Thanks Thamesweb! Last Edited By: Beryl Mann 30-Sep-2009 04:59 PM. Edited 1 times.
Pat Larkin	Thames and deep water	#19	[-]
Posts: 964 ( 2-Oct-2009 12:40 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The 'deep hole' sends shivers up my spine and Tony sadly knows, to his and his family's cost, that the Thames was, and still is, treacherous....sad, sad tales come from lots of people where a young-one or an older relative, has just, for a split-second, forgotten the rules of the river.......he says he too knew about the deep hole Beryl, and is quite surprised about your not knowing earlier....please, always take care whenever water is involved, definitely, no back-flips!........Four names, Bob, Beryl, Tony's brother, my Mother, that's just the tip of the iceberg s.t.s. where falling into the Thames is concerned. Thank goodness all were rescued and lived to tell the tale. [EDIT: Carrod para moved to Miscellaneous] Last Edited By: thamesweb 2-Oct-2009 08:20 PM. Edited 1 times.
Beryl Mann		#20	[-]
Posts: 338 ( 2-Oct-2009 01:31 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I knew about the hole Pat but certainly not about the shelf and sudden drop whic the MoB mentioned above. That's the trouble isn't it? On a swealteringly hot day children and adults alike think 'water' and not what lies beneath! It has to be a case of being for-warned to be for-armed! I hope you hear some good results from your Carrod enquiry Pat. It is not a common name by any means. As for tandems - I can only envisage a pony and trap and that's if they had wheels in those days! ...or just plain horses...why didn't I think of that first?